“Why Americans Care About Work So Much” – Derek Thompson
Workism – is a term describing excessive devotion to work ethic, so much that it defines a person’s purpose in life.
Nyasha G (00:01.658)
You are now tuned into the Hopeful Workspace podcast. You will hear stories of real people from all over who are dealing with job loss or tough job situations. No companies are named and the people are kept anonymous. Well, except me, I’m Nyasha . Join me as we listen to the real stories of real people and take what you need from their situations to grow. Remember.
What you’re experiencing is just a season and there’ll be many more good ones after this.
Nyasha G (00:02.243)
Hey, I am here today with Carl Alexander. How are you doing today, Carl?
Carl (00:07.886)
I’m doing good. It’s summer in Canada, so it’s warm and we don’t have to live in our igloos. So I’m really happy with that. So I’m doing great. And how about you?
Nyasha G (00:16.511)
You
I am doing awesome, it is also very hot. I’m in the Southern United States, it’s too hot actually, but I’ll enjoy the sun while I can. I want you to introduce yourself to our guests.
Carl (00:30.542)
Yeah.
Carl (00:34.606)
Okay, I’m Carl Alexander. I mostly hang out in the WordPress community, but I do. I’ve been on my own for, gosh, I think 13 years now. I do all sorts of consulting. I do fractional CTO product development, disaster recovery. Basically, if you need something technical, I might be a good fit for you. And it’s not
Even though I hang out a lot in the WordPress community, it’s more like, I call it WordPress adjacent. So it’s sometimes related to WordPress, sometimes it’s not. But it’s not really directly related to working inside WordPress per se. So that’s what I do. And I also have a little product that I’m trying to grow, which will actually will be relevant to what we’re going to discuss today called Emir. It’s a serverless platform for WordPress.
Yeah, so that’s B in a nutshell.
Nyasha G (01:37.059)
Awesome, Carl’s really cool and really smart and I’m so happy to have him talking to us today. And just letting you all know the topic of today is workism. Now I had never heard of this before until I was speaking with Carl and workism is the term, it’s a term coined by Derek Thompson and he wrote this in an article by the Atlantic.
Carl (01:42.35)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (02:02.563)
It’s his headline on it or his reasoning or definition is workism is rooted in the belief that employment can provide everything we have historically expected from organized religion. Blew my mind. And I, Carl just said he could talk about it for so long and I just really wanted to, I wanted him to talk about it on our podcast. And yeah, Carl, I want you to just go, I want you to tell me like when you first discovered this term and just talk about it and yeah.
Carl (02:23.758)
Hmm.
Carl (02:30.51)
Yeah, I’m going to show Derek a bit more. He has a podcast called Plain English. It’s one of the few podcasts that I listen all the time. He I’m like kind of a polymath, so I love learning about a wide variety of things. So he does an excellent podcast if you like learning about random topics or random societal issues. But yeah, no. So I’d also never really heard the term workism until I read that.
article, but for me, it was something that I kind of like already knew internally because I’ve had that experience. That’s why, like I was listening to your podcast and we were talking and I was just like, I’ve been through this. Like that’s why I’m on my own now. Yeah. You know, cause I kind of figured that out 13 years ago that it’s really hard to balance
passion and work because a lot of programmers love their work and like we got into programming not just because it was a cool job that paid well we got into programming because it was just cool and we love building stuff and and creating things you know it’s a lot of i don’t know about you but like
Nyasha G (03:34.307)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (03:50.979)
Yes.
Carl (03:58.83)
You know, I had some Legos when I was a kid and I loved building stuff with Legos. Like, yeah, you’d get the set, but after that you like, you’d build stuff. Like you could create things. And I always felt like programming was kind of like digital Legos, you know, like you could build anything. You can build a website, you could build an application, you can build, you know, something for your phone. It’s insane. So you love it. So you love the work. And then you start working for a company.
And obviously you love your work, so you want to work a lot. And then, you know, a lot of developers were, you know, a lot of you’re kind of not naive. I don’t want to say naive, but you’re, you’re new, right? And you’re like, this is great. And people are like, you know, this is a family and everything. And then you’re like, you get really invested and you just start giving. Like you, you start giving and giving and giving to this company.
Nyasha G (04:42.563)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (04:58.03)
And they’ll take, you know, like it’s, you know, it’s not anybody’s fault, but I don’t blame the companies for doing it because you know, like you’re motivated. They’ll, they’ll, they’re happy to have an employee that’s super motivated, but it can lead into these kind of, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of an abusive relationship, right? It’s, it, you know, it’s, it’s not an abusive in a, in a way that’s like,
Nyasha G (04:59.715)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (05:19.971)
Yes.
Carl (05:27.534)
makes you feel bad, but they just take, right? They just take and take and take. And then when it’s time to say like, okay, I need something from you, well, then you realize that you’re actually not in a reciprocal relationship, right? You’re not, right? And that’s, that kind of is the, that was kind of what happened with me. And that’s what I resonated with your story a lot because I’ve been, that’s like kind of.
Nyasha G (05:30.467)
Yes.
Nyasha G (05:42.627)
Yes.
Carl (05:55.886)
central a bit to workism because workism is about this idea that we’ve replaced a lot of our passion, our free time with this idea of work. But the problem is that when you’re in, obviously there’s real, there’s structure, there’s like power dynamics and organized religion as well, but it’s not your livelihood. You know? And so when you realize one day that you’re in kind of this like
Nyasha G (06:19.523)
Yes.
Carl (06:24.782)
relationship that’s like abusive. Cause that, I mean, so actually I didn’t say we talked to him from Canada, but I’m actually from Montreal. So for people that don’t know about it, Montreal is basically the gaming industry Mecca. I think outside of California, there, there isn’t a place with more gaming studios than most of my friends that when that work in programming here work in the gaming industry and the gaming industry is notorious.
for abusing people. And that’s like the perfect encapsulation of this because every friend of mine, everybody that works in video games, they love video games. They just want to build video games. They’re so happy to be able to work in something that they’re so passionate about. But these companies, this is where you hear about crunch time and all of it like crazy, crazy overworking.
Nyasha G (06:56.771)
Yes, it is.
Carl (07:24.558)
to like meet these deadlines and it’s just like really hard, you know, and you get stuck in there and you’re like, this is like the relationship you have. So it’s really important to keep that in mind. So yeah, I had that experience myself because I was really passionate about a company and I wanted them to do well and everything. And you start hitting issues with management or whatnot. And I was just like,
Yeah, at some point I was just, it just something broke a bit like you were saying, right? Like you, I mean, you, you ended up being let go and that kind of like triggered, right? That triggered this kind of questioning, right? Right? Because yeah.
Nyasha G (07:58.435)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (08:10.243)
Yes, it did. Twice for me, twice in six months. So the first one already, it was already like what I’d never been fired before in my life. And I’ve never been laid off. People told me to make the distinction. To me, there was no distinction at the time. I was like, I’m gone. Like what is the distinction? But I know it’s one, but that had never happened to me before in my life. So it was,
Carl (08:17.678)
Yeah.
Carl (08:33.358)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (08:36.387)
And I think the second one was the one that truly broke me because I was at a company that I took that job out of desperation because of my first layoff and I did not really want to be at the company. There were some, I don’t want to call it red flags, but there were warning signs. Yeah, there were flags. There were flags when I first started that I probably shouldn’t stay, but you know, what do you do when you need the money? And when I was laid off from there,
Carl (08:47.278)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (08:54.35)
There are flags. We’ll call them flags.
Carl (09:03.822)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (09:06.051)
right after like 90 days, I would, that’s when they broke. I was like, what am I doing? Because I did a lot for my second job. I did a lot for both, but the second job, man, like I, to keep up with all of my commitments and work, I would get hotels and other cities just to make, just to be able to work remotely and make all their deadlines instead of using PTO or flex time. I just wanted to be present and I wanted to be a good worker.
and I was spending all this money to be a good worker. And I was like, for what? What did I end up with? So, my gosh, yes, it really did, it broke me. And you also hit on something really, really, really, really, really, I think that was my aha moment when you sent the article, something that, this is what blew my mind the most about workism. Derek talks about how it’s,
Carl (09:44.846)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (10:03.203)
what we look for in work these days is what people traditionally look for in organized religion. And for me, I’m someone who was born in the Southern United States and it’s a very religious area in the United States. And I do not participate in organized religion anymore, not since I was a teenager. So for when that, when I heard that and I already read that it like,
Carl (10:09.582)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (10:15.438)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (10:31.043)
a light went on in my mind because I was like, maybe that’s why I was doing so much at these jobs because I did not, I don’t have an organized religion that I go flock to anymore. So maybe I was super hardcore looking for that in work. And when I didn’t have it anymore, something in me just kind of, what’s going on? It kind of dissolved.
Carl (10:31.79)
Yeah.
Carl (10:57.454)
Yeah, yeah. And see, I was brought up Catholic. I went to church a bit, but it was never a big part of my life. But one of the again, I’m I think it was Derek Thompson, but that did a talk. But it’s I think they call them third spaces. But basically, a lot of society is losing what they call third spaces. So like church clubs.
Nyasha G (11:13.923)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (11:23.363)
Yes.
Carl (11:25.646)
like the Rotary Club or just like, I’m just thinking I used to go train at the, I love weightlifting. I do that five times a week and I used to do at the YMCA and the YMCA just did not survive COVID. like the, like the institution in Quebec is, is really a very, like it’s a fraction of itself now. There’s only a few of them that are left open.
Nyasha G (11:40.835)
Mmm.
Carl (11:53.518)
But I was thinking of like, I remember going, I was going every day and you know, you have elderly people going there and meeting up and like playing board games and yeah, they’d go train and swim, but they were just hanging out there, right? And that space is gone, you know? So it’s, you know, like you can, one thing that I find interesting with a lot of these topics is you can find a lot of second order effects too, like, you know, like,
Nyasha G (12:08.098)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Carl (12:23.15)
I like joking that because I don’t work full time, but I’m like boomer retired. But even the idea of boomer retirement, of boomer retirement is actually a bit tight. Like I’m just having this epiphany right now, FYI. Like this is a live, but think about it like of your parents that have trouble retiring, that they just like, they just continue working or they work part time and things like that.
Nyasha G (12:29.507)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (12:38.307)
my gosh.
Carl (12:53.87)
they don’t have a space to go, right? You know, like, right? Because before, like, if you think, you know, I’m not very nostalgic for like the 60s or the 70s, but when you retired, you still had all these clubs that we were talking about and then they could, so that to me, that’s actually like a bit of a larger angle of this workism thing that Derek doesn’t talk about, but I’m just like thinking right now is like, maybe that’s why a lot of people have trouble retiring too.
Nyasha G (12:58.243)
Wow.
Carl (13:23.534)
Right? Because your job, your work has just taken over so much of your, like, not just identity, but just your life, right? Like, what do you do with all of this time that you dedicated once it’s over? Right? And it’s a real struggle. And I remember when…
Nyasha G (13:24.291)
Yes.
Nyasha G (13:37.827)
Yes.
Nyasha G (13:45.539)
Yeah.
Carl (13:52.494)
So when my parents retired, my dad retired first and I wasn’t really worried about my dad because my dad paints and he does all this. He goes swimming. He already had a lot of activities that he did, but my mom, my mom didn’t. So I was really worried. I was just like, what is she gonna do? Is she gonna like go crazy or something when she retired and.
Nyasha G (14:06.723)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (14:18.158)
She ended up being okay, actually, but it wasn’t obvious to me. She ended up doing a lot of volunteer work at hospitals and things like that. But it’s just like when your life, like this idea of workism is that you give so much space to your job, to your job in terms of identity, but also your time and your passion and everything. And there’s nothing, I don’t think…
Nyasha G (14:42.595)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (14:46.286)
there’s anything wrong with it, but I think it’s really important to be self -aware of it and be able to catch yourself because like we were talking, the reality is that a job, a workplace could tell you they’re the most awesome place in the world and they’ll respect you and things like that, but when it’s gonna get really tough.
Nyasha G (14:53.091)
Yeah.
Carl (15:11.15)
you know, you’re not gonna be, all those things they told you are not gonna be true anymore. And they go right out the window. And it’s not true for everyone. That’s why I was talking, like there’s, I know he stopped investing, but there was Tyler, I think, I forget his family name, but his family name, I think it was Tyler, he was doing something called Calm Companies. Like he had the Calm Fund and he was not investing in Calm Companies.
Nyasha G (15:17.731)
They go right out the window.
Carl (15:39.63)
companies that were growing slowly, methodologically not taking, because a lot of the firing, at least in the tech industry right now, is because during COVID, they were like, we need to hire a whole bunch of people. And then they over -hired and they’re like, okay, I see you. And then they’re just like, lay off, lay off, lay off, lay off, lay off. And I really pay attention to business owners, because you know, like,
Nyasha G (15:54.883)
Yeah.
Carl (16:08.462)
I’m trying to stay at one person company because I don’t want that. I don’t want to have that responsibility. But if I was, I would try to be, I know of two agencies in WordPress. One’s actually Montreal that they seem to be doing good and respectful is, and then another one that’s really large that I don’t want to name, but, but I remember talking with their CEO and he told me he had a year of runway.
and salaries for every employee you hire.
Nyasha G (16:40.035)
Wow.
Carl (16:41.614)
So that’s, that requires real that like, that’s why it’s not every company that’s bad. Like I think there’s like, you can do that, but I think you have to think, and this is where I was 13 years ago is I wanted to start a business because I was, how do you build a business where you like treat employees? Like really like, you know, you can’t always be like at the end of the day, if, if you can
have a year of runway, but at some point that runway is gonna go, right? So it’s like, you have to, and you’re gonna have to make hard decisions, but how do you build a company where you actually really, what are the systems that you would have in place? What are the types of things you would do to like look like you’re a company that really values their employees and really wants to give them like,
Nyasha G (17:13.762)
Yeah
Carl (17:37.966)
financial safety because that’s really what it is about. Because we joke about that. I never know each month where my money’s gonna come from, right? I’ve been doing it for 13 years, but I still don’t know each month. But you trade one stress for another, right? You might get a job and you never know if you’re gonna lose it and that’s stressful too. So how do you give somebody a workplace where they can have this
Nyasha G (17:39.715)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (17:48.067)
Mm, mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (17:55.235)
Yes.
Carl (18:06.83)
financial safety because I think for me at least I I’ve had a period of my life where I was I wasn’t I didn’t grow up poor but I had a period of my life where I was like I lived off like for years off very little and it just really Stayed with me like financial safety is really important. How do you offer that to your employees? How do you because when you invest in your employees
Nyasha G (18:24.003)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (18:36.174)
It really pays off, but it’s hard. And that’s the reality. And work is kind of, is this idea that you have blinders on, right? Like you put all this investment in, but, and they just are happy to give you lip service to that. You have to like look at what are they actually doing about that? And that’s hard, right? So it’s always, that’s why I’m always like with people like.
Nyasha G (18:52.579)
Yes.
Carl (19:04.11)
Be careful, don’t overcommit. Now I’m just always like, be careful, don’t overcommit, you know, know your limits. You know, because I was, my story with that was like, I was showing up because I was in meetings all day. I showed up like at 6 a to do work, the work I was supposed to do. And then I would stay after five to do more work. And then I come in on the weekends.
Nyasha G (19:22.563)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (19:29.539)
Yep. Yep, yep, yep.
Carl (19:30.862)
And it was insane. And it was great because I was getting promoted and stuff like that, but I wasn’t getting a salary bump out of it. I, you know, it was great for my ADHD polymath side of like, okay, well I’m a programmer. I’m a team lead. I’m a business analyst. I’m a project manager now. It’s like great, but at some point you’re just like, you start investing in the company and then you’re like, okay, well I want to make this place better. And then they’re like, no, like we’re not going to do any of that. And then I’m like,
why am I here? So, and that’s kind of what broke with me because I was just like, ironically, it’s so it’s this, you know, I’ve been gone for 13 years, but I still know people that are still in that company and it never got better.
Nyasha G (20:01.955)
Yeah!
Nyasha G (20:18.147)
Mm, that is a long time to not get better, but that’s the reality of a lot of people and a lot of companies and a lot of owners. And you brought up so many good points. I wanna touch on a few things you talked about. So when you talk about the loss of third spaces, that’s something that we talk about a lot here, especially for children and teenagers. But I, and that’s the main one, because where can parents go? Where can kids go? There are so many.
Carl (20:24.654)
Yeah.
Carl (20:30.958)
Yeah, yeah, go, go, go.
Carl (20:40.942)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (20:47.459)
places that are becoming more like no kids, no teenagers and things like that. But when you brought up the fact that there’s work and then there’s third spaces and where do we go, you brought up a great point for me because I actually, I got into tech and I moved. I was in South Carolina my whole life, not willingly, but I’ve always wanted to go and live in different places, not just in the United States, but all over the world.
And I finally got to move for the first time in my life out of the state. And it was during COVID and I was working in tech, so I was making good money and then I got laid off. So when I got laid off, I realized, where do I go to make friends here? Because all my friends were online, I was remote working. Like, where is there a space to go that doesn’t revolve around alcohol?
there’s almost none in my town, in my city, and I’m in Charlotte, North Carolina now. And then there’s like, what can I do if I just want to go relax? There are not many places. Luckily we have a lot of greenways. We have a lot of just North Carolina. The Carolinas are very outdoorsy, naturey places and very beautiful. So, but if you don’t like being outside, what do you do? I love being outside. So I love that. But there’s also,
Carl (21:44.302)
Yeah.
Carl (21:55.894)
I’m gonna go.
Carl (22:06.126)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (22:13.219)
bringing work into those spaces. So I love food. I talk about food a lot. And I love Asian food the most. It’s my favorite food. And there’s an Asian food hall. Nice.
Carl (22:18.286)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (22:23.182)
You’re not gonna get anything out of me, right? I love Asian food too, so I went to Japan, you know, I had my little ramen place. I had my little ramen place. I went every day. He counted. At some point, he didn’t speak any English, but at some point he was like 50 times. I was like, 50 what? He was like, you’ve been here 50. And that was over multiple trips. I was like, that’s amazing. He’s keeping track. But yeah, of course, like, yeah.
Nyasha G (22:30.723)
You did.
Nyasha G (22:49.059)
So cool. I was very jealous.
Carl (22:51.406)
Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, I love it all.
Nyasha G (22:54.563)
I was very jealous. I’m going to just, this is our little slide. I know we’re venturing off, but I’m going to South Korea. Went to South Korea in September. So I’m very excited to eat EES. Which I’ll tie that in actually to things at the end, but, and it’ll be a good reason why, but there’s a food hall and you can work there. They set up tables and wifi and like outlets for you to work.
Carl (22:58.574)
Yeah, sidebar.
That’s great.
Carl (23:11.726)
Eh -heh.
Nyasha G (23:18.819)
And so this food hall I first started going to, because it was a source of fun. It was something to do outside of work. I can go get food. And then they had things for children. I don’t have children, but I’m just telling people just because they want to go. But they had things for everybody. And I was like, my gosh, I was looking for something like this. But then they were also like, you can work here also. And I was like, yeah, why not work here? And then one day I was going to a festival. They had a Japanese festival there.
Carl (23:28.75)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (23:47.267)
some of my friends were like, how did you know about this place? And I was like, yeah, I work here sometimes. And I thought about it. I was like, holy crap. I let work become the place where I was having fun. My third space is not, is it really still a third space? Because I work there most of the time now, more than I eat and like go have fun and like find soju and like on Aguirre and stuff like that.
Carl (23:52.43)
You
Carl (24:05.582)
No.
Nyasha G (24:11.587)
So I was like, my gosh, wow. Like that’s, I destroyed my third space, my one third space I had here.
Carl (24:11.662)
Yeah.
Carl (24:18.51)
Yeah, I mean, it’s tricky. It’s really tricky because again, I was thinking you were explaining things to a note. You know me from WordPress, but WordPress was kind of this kind of relationship too, right? Like I’ve invested, not invested, I shouldn’t even, but I’ve volunteered thousands of hours to this community, right? And unpaid.
Nyasha G (24:28.515)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (24:44.675)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Carl (24:47.822)
And at some point, and this is what’s happening with a lot of the organizers, because I organize, I wrote articles, I was speaking at five to seven conferences a year. I was paying for my own travel to get there. And I loved it because I was part of this community, but you know, communities can also take, like it’s just, you just have to be careful when you give.
Nyasha G (25:08.419)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (25:14.958)
basically is what it comes down to a lot is just at some point every even communities that are very free flowing and happy like the WordPress one they will take and you’re seeing that a lot when I talk with a lot of long term, long time organizers like 10 plus years, you know, they’re burning out.
Nyasha G (25:15.747)
Yes.
Nyasha G (25:31.971)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (25:45.91)
And because it’s not, it’s just not a healthy relationship. And I tell that to people now, like I don’t, I speak at one, I don’t attend that many anymore. I don’t, and part of it is just, I kind of woke up and I was just like, this is, I’m in the same pattern again, right? It’s the same pattern, different place. And you have to be,
Nyasha G (26:05.507)
Yes.
Carl (26:11.886)
That’s why I talk a lot about self -awareness because you have to sometimes be like, okay, I’m in this and then you have to look at it and be like, am I okay with this? You know, like you have to realize that you are, this is not, this is a power relationship, right? You know, you’re not, you’re not in, the power you have is you can walk away.
Nyasha G (26:14.371)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (26:31.171)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (26:38.35)
So it’s harder to do with a job, but at least when you’re volunteering, you can walk away, right? And with a job, you just have to start looking for another job, which is like not easy and it’s scary and everything, especially right now in tech, but yeah, it’s crazy right now. Like I’m always like, well, you know, hopefully I work, you know, like I said, it’s like one stress for another, right? So it’s just.
Nyasha G (26:43.619)
Yes.
Nyasha G (26:54.563)
crazy right now.
Carl (27:06.35)
I don’t know where my money’s coming from, but it’s like, I don’t know where the job would come from either. But it’s really about all this work is stuff is also about.
really for me anyways, it’s about, yes, it’s like, what is this replacing? But it’s also about thinking about these relationships that you have with these communities or workplaces and taking stock of it. Because sometimes we’re so in it, right? Again, that’s how it works with abusive relationships. You don’t see it while you’re in it. It’s just once you walk away, you’re like, crap.
like I was in that. And that can be hard to do. So it’s not saying it’s an easy thing to do. I’ve been really lucky in my life that I’m very introspective. So it helps a lot, but it’s always worth thinking about what your relationships are to these things where you’re giving a lot and whether you’re having the right
You know.
If you’re doing something that you like look at yourself and you’re like, okay, I’m like, I am happy. Like it makes me happy to give this much, even though like it has to be selfless. Like it has to be somewhat selfless because I do not expect a job to necessarily cover for me. Cause there’s a lot of stuff too we haven’t covered. Like it’s just like, you know, the job doesn’t have your back. Some systems are.
Nyasha G (28:33.123)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (28:52.429)
They sound like good on paper, like unlimited personal time out, time off. It sounds really good on paper, very kind of like psychologically difficult, right? Because if nobody’s taking any time off, then nobody takes any. And then if you take some, you feel guilty. So it’s, you know, it’s just, there’s a lot in there. So it’s just about questioning those things always. And that’s what I do a lot with workism and things like that. Cause I…
Nyasha G (29:04.067)
yeah.
Carl (29:21.55)
You know, I’m the, you know, I’ve told people like that are like in these kind of abusive work relationships that you should just phone it in. Just phone it in. Just don’t stay after work. Just get in the meetings, do the meetings, do what you and you know, if they need more, they tell them you can’t like you because otherwise you’ll get into these
Nyasha G (29:32.515)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (29:37.603)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (29:51.79)
That’s how you get stuck, right?
Nyasha G (29:53.731)
Yes, it is.
Carl (29:55.822)
because then it becomes expected of you.
Nyasha G (29:57.955)
Yes it does.
Carl (30:00.366)
It becomes expected of you and then they’re like, why are you doing it anymore? I’m like, I shouldn’t have been doing it in the first place, but it’s hard. Like I’m a peop – I don’t know about you, like I’m in like, I’m super open with this stuff. Like if you go on my blog, I talk about autism and ADHD and stuff like that, but like I’m in therapy, but I’m in therapy because I’m a people pleaser and that’s difficult. So, so if you’re a people pleaser, it becomes really hard. You can get yourself into these, these situations.
Nyasha G (30:13.219)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (30:22.147)
So am I.
Carl (30:31.246)
where I like to use the term like you make people comfortable at your own expense. And you will do that with work if you’re not careful, you will do that. And I talked about it in the context of consulting, you know, consulting, you’ll, you’ll over deliver, you’ll ask, you know, instead of being like advocating for yourself and say like, okay, I’d love to do this for you, but this is going to cost you like, you know, this much more, you just do it for free, you know,
Nyasha G (30:36.451)
Yes.
Carl (31:01.842)
And it’s just, there’s just so much. It’s like, there’s so many, it’s like a nungion, right? Like you peel it. There’s like so many layers to this, but I think the idea with workism is just that we’ve, we’ve replaced a lot of this. We’ve put so much weight into it. And in a way, at least as a programmer, it’s really hard for me to not do that. Like I just, I love programming. I love.
Nyasha G (31:20.419)
Hmm?
Carl (31:29.838)
I love the work that I do. So it’s a question of balance and introspection and checking in with yourself and being like, okay, can I do this? Am I giving too much? And it’s just really, it’s just, you have to be kind of a bit more proactive, like especially as us, like as people pleasers, cause we’ll give a lot and then it becomes expected and then you’re like.
Nyasha G (31:53.315)
Hmm.
Carl (31:56.91)
I don’t know if we can swear at this, I forgot to ask. So I’ll just say you’re like, you’re like effed, you know? Like you’re like effed, you know? And basically, that’s really hard. And I think that’s really my takeaway with all of this is like when I was bringing it up to you is like, yes, it replaced organized religion, but also it’s just.
Nyasha G (32:03.331)
Yeah. Yeah.
Carl (32:25.134)
It goes further than that because we don’t have third spaces. We don’t have these communities. We don’t. And even like I said, communities can take too much too. Like it’s just because we don’t have as many.
Nyasha G (32:33.763)
Yes.
Carl (32:40.494)
baskets like as many options of things like We’re stuck with these few things and then if they can it’s very easy to like get in a abusive Scenario because we don’t have anywhere else. We can just be like, okay. Well, you know I’m I’m done with this. I’ll go somewhere else or I’ll down I’ll reduce my time and it’s just like you’re over invested and It becomes really scary It’s really scary
Nyasha G (33:08.483)
It does, it is. And one thing I want to, I want to tie this all into workism is a thing. If this is your first time hearing about it, it might blow your mind like it did mine. I was like, we have to talk about this immediately. But there are ways to break out from it and it doesn’t have to always stem from a layoff. Mine has kind of come from a layoff. And you know, we talk about, I talk about a lot about how the layoffs have affected me negatively.
Carl (33:13.902)
Yeah.
Carl (33:18.062)
Yeah.
Carl (33:22.19)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Nyasha G (33:37.667)
Did you sneeze? Bless you, did you sneeze? Cough? okay. That’s okay. But we talk a lot about how layoffs have negative impacts, but I wanna talk about something that’s positive and it kind of goes in with workism. I was definitely being affected by workism, especially at my previous job. And when I was laid off from there, I…
Carl (33:39.598)
No, I coughed. Sorry.
Carl (33:51.182)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (34:00.483)
Again, something broke in me. I was like, okay, I’m not going to jump into another tech company. I’m sorry, I cannot do this. I cannot mentally do this. And I was like, I don’t want to give my time like that again. And I don’t want to be the one giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. And at the end of the day, what did I give to? I didn’t give to anything I own. My name’s not on it. So, you know, what do I do next? And so as a result, up until Saturday, I was working three jobs.
in place for my tech jobs. Now, I’m not inviting people to do that. I just had to do that because I was in tech making six figures and I was definitely living in a place where you have to make a good amount of money to pay your rent. And so, you know, I had to, you know, keep up with that for a little while. But what it gave me working three flexible jobs was more freedom, because if I didn’t want to work one day, I did not have to. Yes, there’s no PTO.
but I could make it up when I started to work again with another job. And so I’ve been able as a result to keep money coming in, but also build my own schedule. I can travel. I said earlier, I’m going to South Korea. So I’m making, yeah, I’m making the least amount of money I’ve made in almost 10 years. It’s like, I wasn’t even, I wasn’t that making that much, but I’m making that little now. And, you know, of course the standard of living is way higher now, but.
Carl (35:12.206)
I know that’s amazing.
Carl (35:25.038)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (35:28.515)
because I’m able to put myself first and not just give my all to one company. I’m actually, I’m flexing my time. I’m doing bits and pieces here. I’m able to, you know, plan and do things like that. And also another thing that you brought up, Carl, I grew up without money. I did not travel. I did not do much. I went to my first concert when I was 17. I was almost an adult because this just wasn’t in the budget.
And as a result, I’ve learned how to live on less means. Yes, it was hard at first because again, the least I’ve made in 10 years, but I remembered things from when I didn’t have money and I was able to do much more than I’ve done working full time because I have the time now. I’ve been to concerts the last few weeks. I went to see Megan Thee Stallion, Maroon 5, T -Pain, I’m going to South Korea. I’m going to Canada this week. I won’t get to see Carl, but…
Carl (36:21.518)
Yeah, I know, I won’t be there sadly. I won’t be there sadly.
Nyasha G (36:27.203)
But I’ve been able to do so much because I’m putting myself first. And when a job, any of my jobs have asked for too much, I’ve told them no. And now I’m down to two jobs because I put my foot down with one, but I’m still making money. I still get to travel. I still get to go see people and I’m happier. And I want people to know that you can break free from this as long as you put yourself first. And it’s hard, especially if you have a family, if you have, again,
You don’t have third spaces because all of your friends are online like me, but it’s doable and we do it every day. Like look at Carl, he’s in Japan and he never invites me, but it’s okay. Go for it.
Carl (36:58.83)
Yeah.
Carl (37:04.43)
I mean, I’m listening to you and I want to share a couple of things because I think I used to share it a bit more. So basically, if I went to a job right now, I think my title would be something like principal engineer or something like that. It’s like 200 to 300 ,000 a year. But you were talking about lifestyle and things like that. I think that’s a high leverage point because
Nyasha G (37:23.235)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (37:34.286)
You know, just a full disclosure, I’ve never made more than 65 ,000 US in my life.
Nyasha G (37:44.355)
Wow.
Carl (37:46.158)
And I think what the reason to give the number is just to give perspective. I live in a place where I can afford to do that. Montreal is a lot cheaper, but I think to go back to what you said is that you have options. You can control your spending. I could do a whole episode on this. Like I’ve done talks on this, but basically you have leverage point. What I loved about your story and why I wanted to point that out.
Nyasha G (37:53.731)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (38:01.667)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (38:15.15)
is that I’ve made decisions. You’ve made decisions to see like how can I build a life where I feel like fulfilled? I can do the things that I love. I can travel. I can go see Megan Stallion. I can go see Maroon 5. I can do the things that I want and still feel okay. And I think having that control
Nyasha G (38:28.707)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (38:42.595)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (38:44.942)
You know, having feeling like you have agency. That’s the word, right? You have agency over your life is powerful. Right. and I think that was what I wanted to bring up with that because for me, I have agency. I’ve never wake up in a morning. Like I worry where I’m going to make money, but I’m never worried about I need more or this. I’ll, I know I’ll figure it out.
Nyasha G (38:49.219)
Yes.
Nyasha G (38:54.051)
Yes.
Carl (39:12.142)
because I have agency and I think that’s really important too, is like, it all ties into a bit of what we were talking about is that you want to take agency over these things and not let these relationships, whether it’s community work and things like that, control everything. And then you’re like, feel stuck. So like part of it is just whether it’s looking for a new job, you’re taking agency, you’re taking slowly some control back.
Nyasha G (39:13.539)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (39:42.414)
it like controls illusionary, but basically, you know, you’ve, you’ve, you feel like you have a way you can make it work. And I think that’s really important because otherwise you feel stuck, right? Like it’s a, again, that’s the same thing you like, you’re, you’re, you don’t realize it. And then you’re like, you’ve put so much and then you’re like, wait, no, I need to invest in myself more. and.
Nyasha G (40:09.731)
Yes.
Carl (40:12.238)
having the agency to do that is amazing. That’s why I loved your story because I was just like, it’s, yeah, we all have different backgrounds, but we, because we all have different backgrounds, we all have different solutions to these problems, right? So, and, but the step is that you took agency. And I think that’s amazing because too many,
Nyasha G (40:27.555)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (40:39.982)
Too many times we feel like stuck. And the first step is always the hardest, but it’s realizing. It was scary leaving a job. Like, you know, I left and I like, I didn’t know what I was gonna do. I was like so convinced I would be okay. But I was like, I had no idea. But I was just like, this is not a good place. Like for me, I was not in a good place anymore. I was just like.
Nyasha G (40:42.915)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (41:08.259)
Yeah.
Carl (41:09.774)
You’re frustrated. You don’t feel like.
What you do matters. And for me, that was really important. And so I was just like, I don’t want to give anymore. And that’s a bit the same thing with WordPress. Like you take, they take and take, and then you’re like, okay, but I don’t have agency here. I don’t have agency. So let me take agency back into my life. Let me go to South Korea. Let me go to Japan for me, you know? And, and I think that’s really…
Nyasha G (41:40.291)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (41:45.646)
important because we don’t, like I said, part of the workism thing is think about, we’re talking about the the grandparent. We don’t know when we’re going to stop working.
Nyasha G (41:56.771)
Yeah, definitely not.
Carl (41:59.086)
We never know, right? We never know. So for me, it became really important. You need to tell me when we need to stop this podcast recording. I told you I’m crazy. Okay. But it’s all related to me. Because it’s just having agency feeling like you’re not giving.
Nyasha G (42:08.643)
Yeah
I’m gonna stop you, I’m gonna stop you, keep going. I’m gonna stop you, I’m gonna stop you.
Carl (42:28.27)
so much of your, like I, at the same time as I quit this, this other job, like I remember I had a couple of, it was, it was, it was scarring in a way, right? Like I was working with, with larger companies and I had these relationships. I’m really good at networking and building relationships. I have relationships with people in these companies. And I remember at some point it was a publishing company and an editor,
just retired and then he got sick and he like died. And I was just like, wow, you just dedicated your entire life to this company and everything. Andy, they treated him fine, but it’s just like, but you were like waiting for this. And it was just, I was like, no, can’t wait. Can’t wait. Like I gotta, I gotta find a way to balance it all out. Like, you know, whether I also don’t have kids. I didn’t want to have.
Nyasha G (43:12.963)
Mm -hmm.
Nyasha G (43:18.307)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (43:27.502)
kids, but whether it’s like having a kid, building a family, like you gotta start doing stuff and being like…
advocating for yourself. Like, okay, like I was just like, this is, I’m giving so much to this company. I’m not going to have any impact here. And I was right. Like I said, I was right because I 13 years later and it’s still the same type of place because the reality is that, and this goes back to what I was saying, like be careful who you invest if you’re going to work for a company, like make sure you understand really the CEO.
Nyasha G (43:48.163)
You
Nyasha G (44:06.371)
Yes.
Carl (44:06.862)
Cause it all, it’s, it’s the CEO down, you know, then when I was talking about the, this WordPress agency where like they had a year of runway for all the employees, that’s a CEO decision. That is not, it’s nobody else. It doesn’t matter who you are in the company. What do you say? There was only one person that’s going to make this a reality and it’s the CEO. So it’s just, that’s the, that’s really the.
Nyasha G (44:18.499)
that is.
Carl (44:34.414)
harsh truth that I learned 13 years ago is that unless I, it’s my company, which is why I started one, I will never be able to build the company that I want or the business that I want or the work environment that I believe in unless I am that person in charge, which is like crazy. But it’s the reality of things. It’s the reality of things, you know, like.
Nyasha G (44:52.259)
Yes. Yes. It’s reality. Yeah.
Yeah.
Carl (45:02.99)
Otherwise, they are not your friend. You know, HR is not your friend. This is like the harshest truth that you’ll learn as like when you start in the workplace, you think HR is your friend, HR is not your friend. HR.
Nyasha G (45:05.731)
Not at all.
Nyasha G (45:14.531)
That’s a, you bring up a great point. My next episode, I have two HR managers. They’re gonna talk about hiring and firing. So thank you for segueing into that. You are the best, cause you read my mind.
Carl (45:24.878)
Yeah. Yeah, no, but it’s true. HR is not your friend. You know, like I have terrible stories where it’s like the goal of HR is to protect the company. And so that’s the reality. So once you start realizing that you can at least be self -conscious, right? Like, again, like there’s nothing wrong, inherently wrong with investing in something if
Nyasha G (45:34.947)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (45:53.55)
you feel you are getting something. Even if it’s just feel good, even if it’s just the feels, if the feels are worth it, then great. You know, it’s great. I don’t, you know, I talked about a lot of the hours I invested in the WordPress community, the feels were amazing. I never regret the time that I invested. But at some point when you’re like, you look at it and you’re like, I don’t, I’m not feeling those feels anymore. And I’m not feeling respected in the same way and all that stuff then.
you have agency and you can be like, and it’s a bit like that with work. And for me, my God, another set. It’s another tangent. I’m really sorry. But one of the things when I started managing companies is I never understood how they could let somebody go. Like it’s like, not like fire. Like I just mean like somebody would get a better job somewhere else because they could get paid more. And that’s the only thing they wanted.
Nyasha G (46:25.251)
You too.
Nyasha G (46:52.099)
Yeah.
Carl (46:53.102)
They want it to be paid more. And every business book, everything will tell you that this, you shouldn’t, if that person about you should just, just match the offer, just do it. But it’s just, again, like that stuff just frustrated me so much. And it’s just like, and I was just like, there’s just so much of that and, and companies that I was just like,
I don’t want to be involved with that because people are really important. It’s really hard to retrain somebody. It’s really hard to retrain somebody. It’s really hard, like all the knowledge that gets lost, all the everything, you know, it’s one thing to fire somebody because like you over, you know, you over hired and stuff and you should really be taking about what you were doing when you did that. And most people won’t.
Nyasha G (47:28.707)
They are.
Nyasha G (47:44.419)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (47:51.694)
look back on it. But really, that happened all the time. And I have stories from friends here with the gaming studios. They really wanted to just stay there. They’re just like, can you just match? And it’s like, nah. And I’m like, wow. I’m like, wow. And I’m like, this is crazy to me because I’ve had to retrain you people.
Nyasha G (47:51.747)
Yeah.
Nyasha G (48:13.123)
you
Carl (48:20.046)
You have to hire people. It’s like all so much time, so much time and energy. And it’s just crazy. So it’s just, yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Nyasha G (48:23.299)
It is.
It is. I wanna end on a positive note. So this podcast is uplifting. And we talked about a lot of hard things, but we also talked about a lot of uplifting things. So that’s so awesome. But I wanna end, I always like to end on advice. What advice do you have for people who are suffering from workism and they’re trying to break free and find their agency?
Carl (48:50.99)
my, okay. You’re like, do you want to do an entire other podcast? I’m like, sure, okay. But, you know, I really, I like what you said. Like it’s really important to realize that, you know, like negativity bias is a thing. We’re talking about the negative stuff. I love my life. I’m so happy that I made that decision. So I’m happy to talk about that. I think this is a great way to end.
Nyasha G (48:57.027)
Ha ha!
Carl (49:22.542)
Look, I think what it comes down to fundamentally, if we’re really honest with each other, is that it’s about money. Your agency is about money. And if the first step to anything is to take really a good look at how you manage your money, how you do things, what are your finances, like if you have kids, if you have debt, you know, we’ve all had different circumstances in life.
And the reality is that I had to do a lot of that work. Like I was just like, okay, how do I make a life for me where I don’t make six figures? How do I build this? Because what you have to start doing is really think about what’s important for you. The way to escape workism is to really take stock of like,
your life and be like, okay, what is really important in my life? What am I, you know, what am I, what is about the Joneses and keeping up? What do I really need? What, what do I need? How do I escape, especially with work? How do I escape the power and the, this power dynamic, right? And the, the best way to have that is to have some sort like, you know,
not necessarily financial security, but having control over the finance, because at the end of the day, that’s what controls it. That’s what allowed you to be like, I’m not working three jobs anymore, I’m working two, right? And it’s, you know, it’s always a bit taboo to talk about money, but the reality is that the minute you start seeing money as a tool, that’s gonna allow you to…
Nyasha G (51:00.323)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Carl (51:16.334)
achieve this and you start managing it as a tool as opposed to like just something that you use to just like, you know, just for consumerism or whatever. Like the more you start thinking about it as a tool that I can use to achieve these things, the better it’s going to be because then you start having, now you start having agency because I can tell you like as a consultant, people can feel it when you can say no.
I’m terrible. Like with my autism, I’m terrible at reading people, but I can, I don’t know what they’re reading, but I know that people can tell that I will walk away, that I do not need their money. And that is power and that is agency and it’s palpable. And it’s the same thing for anyone. If you have, you know, obviously if you’re looking for a job, that’s okay. And you,
Nyasha G (52:05.059)
It’s beautiful.
Carl (52:16.654)
but it’s about these decisions because it’s really about that. And I think once you start having a better relationship with that, then you’ll start seeing more agency because you’ll be like, I don’t need, because the power of workism is the power of money, you know, in a way, right? Because like how we get trapped is the money, because you get a…
you get a certain lifestyle and things like that. It’s all redundant, but it’s all a lot of what the financial influencers or whatever say. But there’s a certain truth to it because it is power. When you have the power to say no, that’s how you break abusive relationships. When you can say no more, no more, right? And it’s incredibly empowering if you can get there. And I would just…
tell people like start looking into that because what decisions you can make, how you can rebuild your life because you know, you’ve done it and look, you’re going to South Korea and you like drop the job and you can still do it and you went to concerts. It’s amazing. It’s amazing, but it requires, it’s so good. It’s such an amazing thing to hear because that’s how I, whenever I’m talking to people that are struggling with that, it’s, you can,
Nyasha G (53:24.707)
Thank you.
Carl (53:39.63)
And when you peel the layers, it comes down to this. They’re like, I don’t know how to get out of that. That’s always, that’s the hardest first step is just realizing that part of the control that this work is them has on us is yes, we invest into the company and into the relationship with the company. But then you, but how do you get out of an abusive relationship is when you can.
have the courage and the strength to walk away. And part of getting that strength and courage is realizing that financially you’ll be okay and putting yourself in a position where you can tell yourself that how each of us does that is up to each of us, essentially. Sorry, it ended up being really, I was like, maybe I’ll have a great phrase to end this, but no, it was just like, but it’s like, but, but.
Nyasha G (54:15.107)
Mm -hmm.
Carl (54:33.422)
It’s really up to each of us. And when I gave a talk on that, it was a bit about that. It was like, I talked about what I did, but the reality is that we all have different backgrounds, different privileges and everything. And it’s just, there’s never going to be a solution that’ll fit everyone. But the reality is that that’s, if you really think about it, that’s where the power is. And to gain agency.
agency is taking power back, right? So to take power back, there, you just have to just improve that. It’s like, it’s, you know, that’s why I say it’s taboo to talk about it. But it’s, it’s the reality because I’ve met multimillionaires that I think are poor, actually, great way to end this, actually, one of the things that I don’t know who I saw it from, but it really stuck with me.
is that it was like rich equals income greater than expenses. And I love that saying because I know people that are like multimillionaire and they feel like poor to me. Like, because there’s always money to spend, there’s always stuff to buy, there’s always anything. And there’s just the only way to get the power back is to gain agency is to just
Nyasha G (55:40.035)
Mmm.
Carl (56:02.702)
There’s no magical number. There’s no nothing. It’s just, there’s always more stuff or you can be really rich and just be isolated. It’s just, you gotta do the work and that’s like, it’s the beautiful part because I love self -improvement. So I’m really happy about it, but it’s the reality of it is that, and I loved your story because it proves exactly that.
It’s like you were able to shed one job and it came with some costs, some trade -offs, but you’re happier. Exactly. You’re way happier. And I think that’s the beautiful lesson to end us on is that you’ve done it and it made your life happier.
Nyasha G (56:39.843)
But I’m happier. I’m very happy. I’m way happier.
Nyasha G (56:54.339)
Yeah, thank you so much, Carl. This was an amazing talk. I cannot wait to get this up. man, thank you just so much. And you always have good advice, even though you keep forgetting that you give it to me, but it’s okay. Thank you for the advice and just thank you for being awesome.
Carl (57:07.118)
I’m like, I’m just always saying stuff. So I’m like, which one was the good advice? But now we have a whole podcast where I gave advice. So we have it recorded now.
Nyasha G (57:18.083)
Hehehehe
Awesome, will you take care, thank you so much.
Carl (57:26.574)
Thank you and take care of yourself as well.
Nyasha G (00:12.238)
Thank you for tuning in to the Hopeful Workspace Podcast. If you have any questions or would like to reach out to our creator, me, feel free to reach out at nyashagreen.com forward slash contact. Until next time, have a good one.